Binance CEO Changpeng Zhao — also known as “CZ” — praised bitcoin as a “better form of value” over fiat currencies, explaining that its advantages became apparent during the 2020 economic turmoil.
Zhao’s comments followed a 20% plunge in bitcoin prices from its all-time high of over US$40,000 on Jan. 8 and then tumbled 20% for four days before recovering. Bitcoin is currently trading at around US$35,000 at the time of publication.
“Covid paused all economic activity globally, and then this quantitative easing by every country — I think 20% to 30% of the U.S. dollars were printed last year, and other countries are probably printing more than that,” Zhao told Forkast.News. “If you’re holding fiat currencies, your purchasing power was probably devalued by 20% to 30% percent if you keep holding onto it.”
As pandemic-related stimulus checks flooded the global economy, rising fears of inflation have led to an influx of institutional investment into bitcoin.
“If you were going to press me for a prediction, I would say bitcoin is probably going to do another 5 to 10x this year alone,” Zhao said, adding that even Binance — the world’s largest cryptocurrency exchange — has been struggling with the massive trading volumes. “There’s no 100% guarantee, but I think currently, we do have less outages compared to other players in the industry.”
See related article: New 2021 bitcoin price report forecasts risks and opportunities
Though Zhao and many in the cryptocurrency industry remain bullish toward bitcoin, others are warning about bitcoin’s volatility. Notably, Bank of America’s chief investment strategist Michael Hartnett and other bitcoin bears are calling bitcoin “the mother of all bubbles.”
But according to Zhao, bitcoin’s volatility is not actually all that high compared to other assets and companies of similar size in market capitalization. “Bitcoin’s volatility is actually lower than, for example, even Tesla’s,” Zhao said.
Despite Zhao’s optimism toward bitcoin, he predicts that most DeFi projects “probably will fail” as the industry is still in its infancy.
“I think we’re seeing the first iteration of DeFi right now,” Zhao said, explaining his belief that second-generation DeFi projects are more likely to achieve long-term success than current first-generation projects. “Google is not the first search engine. Facebook is not the first social media.”
But the CEO’s misgivings toward first-generation DeFi projects have not stopped Binance from entering the DeFi space. The Binance Smart Chain offers both decentralized exchange (DEX) and centralized exchange (CEX) services.
Zhao said that Binance would also continue to invest in projects like CoinMarketCap, which was acquired by Binance in March 2020. Watch CZ’s full conversation with Forkast.News Editor-in-Chief Angie Lau on bitcoin’s rally, the future of stablecoins, his outlook for DeFi and the plans in store for Binance.
Angie Lau: Is bitcoin the mother of all bubbles? What’s behind DeFi’s extraordinary growth? And how is Binance, one of the world’s largest cryptocurrency exchanges, reshaping the future of finance?
Welcome to The Word on the Block, the series that takes a deeper dive into blockchain and the emerging technologies that shape our world at the intersection of business, politics and economy. It’s what we cover right here on Forkast News. I’m Forkast Editor-in-Chief Angie Lau.
We saw massive sell off of bitcoin after it reached a new all-time high of US$41,900, and then Bank of America’s chief investment strategist called it the “mother of all bubbles,” while JP Morgan predicts bitcoin will go over US$146,000 as it competes with gold as an alternative currency.
Who’s right? Well, how about if we ask the man who made the bet before the institutional pundits all weighed in and created a marketplace for crypto. Let’s welcome co-founder and CEO of Binance Changpeng Zhao — or better known as ‘CZ.’
CZ, Welcome to the show.
Changpeng Zhao: Hi Angie, thanks for having me on the show.
Lau: It’s great to have you. It’s your first interview of the year, so thanks for welcoming 2021 with us, right here at Forkast. How did things kick off for you? There’s no doubt, a lot of volume — a lot of trading volume — and a lot of activity on Binance since the start of the year.
CZ: I think things are really, really busy. I think 2021 kicked-off in high gear. So I think in the end of 2020, we saw the bitcoin price going up and institutions coming in and that just continues now. The first two weeks of 2021, I think we’ve seen five or six all-time highs both in terms of price and also system volume. So we’re seeing a massive number of users coming in now. So everything sort of busy, everything’s really cranked up. Everything is in high gear. So things are going pretty well from that perspective.
Lau: Are these new accounts and what are the volumes that they’re trading? Do they suggest that they are retail investors or are they bigger, more sophisticated investors making a bigger bet? What is the make up in your view?
CZ: We actually have seen an increase in both institutional and retail. So we’ve also seen some older accounts waking up, like people contacting our customer support, saying they forgot their passwords from two years ago. Now, they’re finally back. I even have friends calling me saying that they have an account that’s locked, they lost 2FA (two-factor authentication) because they changed phones. We’re seeing some of that, but we’re seeing also a massive number of new users come in. From a peak user trader volume perspective is much, much higher than the peak of 2018, or end of 2017-ish. So, we’re also seeing a lot of new institutions coming in this round.
I think now, especially given the high profile institutions coming in the U.S. — worldwide, there are many institutions coming in now. So we’re seeing a mix of them. The proportions are actually pretty much the same as before, so we haven’t seen one rising above the other but it’s just massive volumes increasing all around — which is pretty interesting to see.
Lau: Yeah, as you note, institutional investors like Guggenheim and MassMutual, and others, really bringing in those dollars as you track trading volumes and flows. What do you think is behind the demand for bitcoin? What is creating that floor for the value?
CZ: If you look at the really fundamental parts, bitcoin is just a better form of value. So it is a better form of money, in a sense. So it has a lot of advantages over traditional fiat currencies, especially. But I think there’s a number of contributing factors for people realizing that, and for corporates, institutions realizing that and then rushing into this industry now.
I think 2020, that was a pretty crazy year. Covid paused all economic activity globally, and then this quantitative easing by every country. I think like 20% to 30% of the U.S. dollars were printed last year, and other countries are probably printing more than that. So basically, which means that if you’re holding fiat currencies, your purchasing power probably devalued by 20% to 30% if you keep holding onto it. And then we’ve seen that the corporate treasurers of course — these are the professional users, these are the experts that understand economy and understand money — they now have to manage their corporate treasuries. They’re now allocating into bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies. And then this kicks off a race — that’s the institutional race right now that we’re seeing in North America and also in the rest of the world.
Once the price starts to go up, all the retail guys flood in as well because everyone wants a piece of the rising value. So I think there are multiple factors contributing to it, but the overall economic situation last year definitely contributed to that.
Then DeFi’s pretty hot. The ‘OGs’ (or industry veterans) in the industry are all rushing to DeFi, including ourselves. I think there’s a number of contributing factors, but there’s nothing really negative about cryptocurrency. The regulations are getting clearer around cryptocurrencies and cryptocurrency businesses. Bitcoin and Ethereum, the top cryptocurrencies are generally viewed to be accepted as non-securities, etc., in most countries, and they’re also seen as valid assets — there are court cases protecting users assets, etc. So I think a number of those things have all come together. So there are multiple factors contributing to the ride and they all feed on each other. So now we’re seeing, I would say, a bull market.
Lau: Why do we see such volatility? It’s par for the course for those of us who’ve been tracking it. But for these huge price swings, for more conservative investors who are observing this space, why is there such massive volatility?
CZ: Well, I think in every market there’s volatility. If you base yourself in any asset, every other asset is going to be volatile. In every other asset is a mass psychology play. And also, bitcoin’s volatility is actually lower than, for example, even Tesla’s. Tesla is going up, really, a lot. And then they have corrections, of course, then there’s volatility.
So it’s actually less than Apple’s [and] Tesla’s stock volatility. So it’s nothing. And it’s also about the same market cap around those areas. So it’s actually not out of the ordinary. Volatility is still happening in trading markets where the asset is actively traded. And this natural price discovery and this mass psychology going on. Everyone wants to rush in, and then the price goes up, and then somebody says, “Okay, now the price is high enough,” they want to cash out a bit and they start selling. Sometimes that triggers a cycle and then everyone wants to sell.
And especially when prices go up really heavily. I think we’ve probably seen bitcoin go from like US$10,000 to US$41,000 in the span of like a month or two. When that kind of price rises, a 20% correction is very, very normal, especially considering a lot of new guys coming in, buying at the new higher prices, they are not the sort of what we call strong hands holders that are in this for the long term. Many of them are for short term gains, and then as soon as they see any price drop, they rush to sell. So they’re not yet the core believers. They had not converted 100% of their wealth into crypto. So there are different stages of people. So the corrections are very, very normal. So I don’t think anything out of the ordinary and I think we’ll continue to see corrections and volatility going forward. But compared to other similar market cap assets, bitcoin is actually not that volatile now.
Lau: And you do note the speculative nature and the volatile nature, but hey, when you’re an exchange, any time somebody does a trade on Binance, that’s dollars for your bottom line. That really is what differentiates Binance from the very early days — getting into crypto, seeing a marketplace, creating a marketplace for exchange. And here you are, fast forward, there’s no doubt of the success. How has Binance handled the expansion and handled all of the machinations, if you will, from 2019, 2020 and into 2021?
CZ: I think for us, it’s really, really just a focus on how to handle growth. So even in mid to late-2018, when bitcoin prices [were] at rock bottom, say, around US$3,000, I was telling our team, “Look, we’ve got to scale up. We’ve got to be ready for the next wave.” So we have been spending the good part of the last two and half years expanding our systems, expanding our team, etc. To be very honest, even today, we have expanded so much capacity, [but] we’re still struggling a little bit.
On peak days, there’s a few different parts. There’s a system which got to stay up when there’s peak volume, and we’re seeing 20 to 30X volumes on a 5% rise of bitcoin. So the volumes on the systems are growing much more exponentially than bitcoin prices. Luckily, we’ve done a lot of work in the last two years, but the system’s not production tested at those volumes and the system’s like a really complex organism right now. There’re so many different moving parts. It’s like a small city grid. If you imagine — there’s traffic going on different roads, and we never really know which road is going to be more congested beforehand. So we actually had to see the new volume coming in and then adjust as we grow.
Even though the core infrastructure is quite scalable, we are still seeing some issues here and there as the system grows to newer levels that we have not seen before. But so far, the system has been holding up.
The other aspects, the second aspect, which is really hard to scale, is customer support. So there’s still a very large portion of customer support which is handled by humans. And you can’t just hire a 10x team before the volume gets there and everybody will be bored, and that’s demoralizing. But when the volume hits, you want to hire 10x people, it doesn’t happen that quickly. So we’re struggling a little bit on that front. We’re making a lot more automated tools to help users, etc., but it’s going to take some time. To be very honest, I think we were always anticipating this type of wave of growth for the last three years. It’s finally happening — which is great — but we are still struggling a little bit to keep up, to be honest.
Lau: There’s no doubt it, and Binance is not the only exchange that is experiencing server outages and pauses — Bithumb, Coinbase and others. It just seems to be increasingly frustrating for the trader. And then your trading position is suddenly lost or it’s paused. People are losing some money here. How are you planning to make it right or mitigate these system failures? How can users be sure that when they want to make a trade in their position that it’s going to go through?
CZ: So to be honest, there’s no 100% guarantee, but I think currently, we do have less outages compared to other players in the industry. But that’s not a valid reason or to say that we’re okay on any outage. So we do try to minimize it. We can’t guarantee that we will avoid all of them. There’re so many different parts: internet messed up, Google goes down sometimes as well. So we do try to minimize those.
One of the advantages we actually have is when Binance goes into the system maintenance, for example, we’ve had to do an upgrade for like eight hours. Because we have so much volume on our order book, the price doesn’t move in that eight hours because everybody knows, given the thick order book on our exchange, when we turn it back on, the price is going to be dragged right back into our spread. So the price will naturally come back to where we paused it, if we’re doing system upgrades. So that’s one of the huge advantages for having a big exchange.
But we do suffer here and there and we try our best to make it right for users if it’s our fault. But sometimes it’s very difficult to figure out whose fault it really is. So when there’s a massive outage, we do try to make up for it. We have a SAFU (Secure Asset Fund for Users) fund, which is an insurance fund that’s used for these types of situations, including security issues [and] system outages. Even when third-party projects get hacked, that coin price goes to zero, we have actually used [the] SAFU fund to cover some of these positions, including the cover incident recently. So there’s no perfect solution, but we do put protecting users as our top priority and top principle in the team.
Everybody on the team knows [that] this is our model and they make decisions that way. But nobody can guarantee 100% no issues. This is a new industry. We’re seeing five to 10x volumes every month or so. It just keeps going up, and we just have to expand systems and also customer support to support that kind of volume. It’s a challenge, but so far we’re dealing okay. I wouldn’t say super great, but I think we’re faring better than most other exchanges in the industry. Hopefully we can continue to grow it and cope with demand.
Lau: Well, you seem to be providing some customer service to potentially a VIP client that you’re trying to woo over to bitcoin — this is Elon Musk. We’ve been enjoying your Twitter exchange. You said you’re going to buy a Tesla if he buys crypto. He inferenced that he was curious if you could buy a billion in bitcoin. And apparently that is possible. A lot of people are paying attention to this because, once upon a time, we didn’t think corporate treasuries were getting into the game and here they are.
CZ: So basically, number one, I enjoy trolling Elon Musk. That’s always good fun. He’s openly talking about cryptocurrencies, bitcoin, memes, Ethereum, etc., but I don’t think we can get him on Binance.com as a customer just yet because I think most of his assets are probably in the U.S. and he’s probably a U.S. citizen. So I think Binance U.S., our partner in the U.S., is going to probably try to win over his business if he wants to buy bitcoin. I don’t have any private information, I don’t have a private conversation with him, etc., but I would imagine that he’s probably buying loads of bitcoin right now and trying to figure out ways to buy.
Because for corporates in America, I would imagine there’s probably a lot of compliance procedures to go through, especially giving a public company, etc. And also being the world’s richest man, there’s probably a lot of additional hoops that he has to go through to acquire bitcoin at a billion dollars of scale. But he obviously talks about it, he understands it, he knows how good it is. So I wouldn’t be surprised if in a few months he announces that, finally, Tesla owns, I don’t know, how many bitcoins. That’ll be really good for the industry. I think it’s going to happen sooner or later — maybe this year, maybe next year. Who knows?
Lau: I think on the record, he said that he only has 0.25 BTC.
CZ: That was a couple of years ago, so we don’t know.
Lau: We don’t know if he added to the position.
CZ: And that’s also him personally. So more likely, he will have to use Tesla’s corporate treasury to buy first before he buys personally. That would be the right thing to do, because otherwise, they may be seen as conflict of interest, etc. He hasn’t said anything about Tesla or other corporate treasuries. I’m sure he couldn’t right now. So someday we may see an announcement. I’m pretty sure the day will come.
Lau: The funny thing about bitcoin is that a lot of people are paying attention to bitcoin right now, and yet, the biggest story of last year and going into this year has been DeFi. And I remember sitting down with you a few years back before all of the buzz, we were talking about DeFi, we were talking about decentralized exchanges when really few people were in here.
And here we are in 2021, total value locked is, I think north of US$22 billion right now. Where do you think DeFi is going? Is this the real story we should be paying attention to? And what is Binance’s strategy when it comes to DeFi and decentralized exchanges?
CZ: I think there’s definitely some core value in DeFi. DeFi is not a fad that will just go away. I think there’s some core principle or core concepts and core use cases and core applications that will stay.
There’s the concept of automated automated market makers (AMM) which provides liquidity in a very transparent way. On the user side, there’s liquidity farming — you stake your coins and you know how those coins are used and you can calculate whether you’re making money or not, you can check. So it’s a very transparent, white box, a see through type of mechanism for users to lock their cryptocurrencies and make the cryptocurrency earn interest for you.
Whereas now, in the fiat world, most of the banks are now starting to charge negative interest rates and they’re pretty heavy. So I think there’s definitely a core use case for that. That’s a very valid use case. Having said that, I think we’re seeing the first iteration of DeFi right now. And as in any industry, there’s a very high chance of failure. Most DeFi projects probably will fail. There will be a few that will be successful and a very high likelihood those are going to be second generation DeFi projects. Google is not the first search engine. Facebook is not the first social media. There’s a learning curve for any new industry.
Right now, I think for the projects that’s already in the industry, I hope they become successful, but the chances are there’s going to be a very large number of failures. But I think the industry will definitely stay. The concept works. The concept is good. There will be more iterations based on those concepts. Basically, it is a very compelling use case. So I think DeFi’s going to grow.
At the same time, if you look at the population mass adoption as a whole, 99.8% of the population still don’t have crypto of any kind. When we speak about DeFi, we’re talking about the marketplace in that 0.2% market share. The rest of the world are still figuring out how to buy bitcoin, and those guys are going to go on a fiat to crypto exchange to buy bitcoin.
DeFi cannot interface with banks or traditional payment channels, so they use stablecoin and other mechanisms. I think there’s still a very large place for centralized exchanges, CEX, to sort of facilitate the next mass adoption that’s going to come in.
I think there are demands for all business types, and for Binance, we actually offer products in both places, we give users multiple options. We offer Binance Smart Chain. On top of that, there’s a number of DeFi solutions growing on that. That’s an entire ecosystem on its own. And we’re trying to add similar kinds of services on the CEX, on the centralized exchange. We’re providing liquidity mining, staking, super savings, super earnings, type of products on the CEX as well, for the kind of novice users. We try to give users options and then we’ll see how the industry grows.
Lau: I mean, with the current state of Binance Smartchain as it relates to DeFi, you’re also planning to work on a stablecoin, I understand.
CZ: Yes, so we actually have been working on multiple stablecoin projects. We have a sort of a basket project that’s called Venus. That’s not a specific coin — well, now there is a specific coin called Venus.
But originally, it was a basket project that’s targeting multiple stablecoins. We have fiat-backed stablecoins like BUSD, which is actually not issued and minted by us, it’s actually minted by our partner in the U.S., Paxos, which is a NYDFS-regulated entity. So they hold all the money. They are constantly being audited. It is a very transparent and fairly safe stablecoin. We launched a BGBP which is the British pound stablecoin. We did Korean Won stablecoin, but we are going to wind that down. That’s kind of like a small failed project. That’s fine.
Lau: Why did it fail?
CZ